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Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

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Do you think the proposed system is better for scoring?

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Total Votes : 19

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Roadrunner on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:53 pm

oh and a graduated bonus system per lobby poles/wins/podiums (if we can make it work)

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by rougewilson78 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:02 pm

I really think the only way to "even" out the not being able to challenge for top spot is to introduce some kind of handicap which is to be used in qualifying as well as the race as with the proposed system it would be possible for a racer that has never qualified in A lobby to outscore a racer that has qualified in A lobby for every race

depending on lobby sizes, using the recent ctcc as an example, perhaps the top 5 guys in each class get a % power handicap, and the remaining 3 from that initial A lobby get some other kind of handicap whether it be changes to the size of tires they use or changing the weight reduction of the car etc

Now these guys would be really pushing to qualify/win in A lobby for the the next race and perhaps give a few B lobby regulars the chance to sneak into A lobby and score some bigger points then as and when the racers position within the table change then the handicap could be removed, adjusted or applied dependant on their position within the championship

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Roadrunner on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:06 pm

that would screw with the car balancing tho.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:15 pm

The points system is different way of scoring than the timed finishes like at TORAs ISCC n TEC. Never once has anyone of us tripped over ourselves in fear of a lower lower guy out placing us.

And yes handicaps end up ruining any car balancing in place.

I do like the idea of bonus points to wins or other things. But there will still be an overlap. Something I think would be beneficial to both the competitors and the series it self.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JVanEssen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:30 pm

I think the table above at 4 positions works well with an exception that is still easily rectifiable. If your running back of A lobby times it makes sense that you might slip into B lobby every once in awhile. No worries you will finish high in that lobby and maintain about the same points. Same with C. As far as over all season scoring If you have two guys finish with identical season points the driver with more A lobby times wins. It is one more thing for scoring to keep track of but it's not that much more.

Basically if you're a consistent 5th place A lobby finisher and you tie at end of season with a consistent B lobby winner you would be placed higher in the order.

I think this solves the issue of A lobbyers driving nuts due to B lobby worries while still incentivizing the B and C lobby guys to fight hard to make it into the higher lobbys.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:48 pm

JVan  Shocked 

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Venom on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:56 pm

i personally think this will promote sandbagging. matt kenseth won a championship by with no wins and tons of top 5s. if the top 4 have a lagout or a bad race potentially that b lobby winner could sweep the season in b lobby n win the championship. this almost takes the qualifying aspect away. i dont think a lower lobby should jump half a room. maybe score as much as last in a lobby but not as much as 5th overall.

i can see an a lobby guy make a lobby every week n finish last every week. a guy in b lobby wins every week. the guy that qualified better than the b lobby guy is no behind the b lobby guy. so all the a lobby guy had to do was a qualify a little worse than his average time n beat the guys in points in his own lobby that he couldnt beat in the lobby.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:06 pm

Kenseth also won races the year too.

Point 2, the B lobby guys still need to win every race and hope the A lobby guys aren't the same top 5 every week. Same thoughts go with TEC races, but still a B lobby has yet to see an overall victory.

And with qualifying, Jvan's idea eliminates almost any thought of sand bagging.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Venom on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:38 pm

only one win rob. out of 36

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JVanEssen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:53 pm

I see what Chad is saying for sure. There is no perfect scenario. That situation seems like it would be pretty rare though is it not? He must of still made it to A lobby a fair amount though I would assume.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR ChicaiN on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:50 pm

I kind of like this and I kind of don't. I don't like it because it isn't really based on performance, its based on where you finish in your lobby. That's not where this stemmed from. This stemmed from people being in top three in B lobby smashing the lower people in A lobby and this can only be tracked with overall race time. Just because you win B lobby doesn't mean you should automatically be put ahead of people in A lobby. That was never my intention on altering the system. The 2 or 3 second handicap per room takes into account for passing and such. All three lobbies have the same issues to overcome from pressure from behind and pressure in front. I made this point...if I qualify 8th in A lobby (last) and still get beaten by two people from B lobby on overall time by 5+ seconds then I don't deserve to place higher than those people. Based on their performance they deserve to be scored in A lobby. That's the bottom line. This suggested system doesn't take into account actual performance. This is a problem. You're giving people positions they did't necessarily earn. maybe they did, maybe they didnt. The only way to know for sure is looking at overall race time per driver. Skip the guessing and middle man and make it time based.

I still think using the overall time per room with a few second handicap from room to room is the best way to go. Yeah...it takes more effort but the end result will be more representative of an actual race. I would be more than happy to do the math per event if that's what people are worried about. It's not too tough.
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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Venom on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:14 pm

A: total time - start time.
B: total time + 5 seconds - start time.
C: total time + 10 seconds - start time.
etc for more lobbies

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:42 pm

keep opinions coming all good input....

as said the proposed points position handicap was as an example only... and is open to discussion


i don't think last in a should equal first in b... thats hardly any change

one thing i do find funny which ties in with the sandbagging issue is that people that winning in B/C lobby is a given, it's most certainly not - and a b lobby winner may or may not have to have driven a harder race than the a lobby winner

i still dont like the time measure for 2 reasons

1. it relies on everyone stopping when asked... i've seen people on tora tec carry on driving for a bit, its open to abuse

2. lets say there are multiple collisions in a lobby or a big lag issue, potentially b & c lobby could beat all of the a lobby racers... how would opinions sway then?


i'm not a fan of different championships (pro/semi-pro/amateur) as it relies heavily on constant good numbers in all categories for full races... and i never understood it on VM and no one could be bothered to explain it - i prefer things to be simple and transparent

i'm not up for bonuses for winners/podiums, the standard points system already rewards winner and 2nd, and could be continued

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR ChicaiN on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:02 pm

The final positions would be based on times from lobby to lobby. Everyone still finishes the races per laps. Its based on how long it took each driver to complete the designtated laps. You only use the final race times to compare lobby to lobby. The 3 or 5 secnond handicap takes in account for crashes and things which rarely happen for more than one or two cars. I really don't see that as a problem.
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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR ChicaiN on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:06 pm

The series setup is the same based on number of laps. The only thing that changes is the final positions based on overall race time per driver. When you strip it all down...this IS the only true way to simulate a race between 30 drivers spread through three lobbies. Nobody should bitch about getting beat in a higher lobby if they were given a 5 second head start to the preceeding lobby.
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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:10 pm

i see where you are coming from... will have to think about how i could implement it

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR ChicaiN on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:12 pm

AndyT306 wrote:
1. it relies on everyone stopping when asked... i've seen people on tora tec carry on driving for a bit, its open to abuse


The race will finish as they do now. The races donot run based on time, they run based on laps. The final times are looked at when figuring overall positions from room to room. I can almost guarantee the final positions will likely be as they were from lobby to lobby with the 3 or 5 second handicap. What it does do is stop people from driving like a total moron in lobby A and still getting their lobby A points that they didnt deserve.



AndyT306 wrote:
2. lets say there are multiple collisions in a lobby or a big lag issue, potentially b & c lobby could beat all of the a lobby racers... how would opinions sway then?


This is very unlikely to happen and with the 3 to 5 second handicap there is more than sufficient time to get around a wreck and continue on your current pace still finishing ahead of the following lobby. Now, those that were in the wreck in lobby A, they should get beat by lower lobbies if they're damaged or took extra time to get back up and running. Lag is what lag is...no sense trying to build anything around it as it is unpredictable.



AndyT306 wrote:
i'm not a fan of different championships (pro/semi-pro/amateur) as it relies heavily on constant good numbers in all categories for full races... and i never understood it on VM and no one could be bothered to explain it - i prefer things to be simple and transparent

i'm not up for bonuses for winners/podiums, the standard points system already rewards winner and 2nd, and could be continued


Agree...we have no where near thenumbers to have this type of setup.


Last edited by XPR ChicaiN on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JVanEssen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:13 pm

Im shooting myself in the foot right now as this would benefit me a fair amount. I think the concept is right but the spread is still not right. I think a peset table that moves with the lobby size just like we do the reverse grid works easiest. No matter what eventually someone will get a raw deal from any scenario so I feel like a set up that reduces the possibilities the most is best.

I am not a proponent of the participation ribbon theory so those that just want more points because they showed up and "tried their hardest" should get bent.

I think something that pushes you to get faster in baby steps keeps all involved stoked and bettering themselves.
i.e
Your a back of C lobby guy trying to get to the front. Then a front of C lobby guy trying to win for the bonus points.
You then make the jump to B lobby but now have to try and get out of the C times completely.
Then the cycle starts over in B and so forth.

Each stage is a goal that is tenths away instead of seconds.

Maybe I'm just an idealist though. HA

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by xHOWZITGOINx on Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:20 am

I agree with changes but not agreeing with someone struggling to make A lobby or B lobby being able to sandbag a little to make the lower lobby and win both races allowing him to get more points than the last person in the lobby above. Some people are just faster than others and some just don't have the speed to win but as much as everyone wants to win, the fun participation factor should be the bottom line

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by TopsyKrat on Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:59 am

Being new to the forum I don't have much experience with current system to criticize. I do however think that the current CTCC series with two classes run together takes away from the experience of each class' race. I understand that its supposed to simulate the series but I think it would be better to have more of the same class to race against. The only time it gets interesting is at the end when the b specs are getting lapped but that only happens once a race and not all ST end up catching all the B specs.
Wrote that without reading all posts.
I like the idea of the amature class and pro class with their own points. I just don't see the point in allowing a slower driver to potentially have the chance to score as much points as a faster person.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by blanman on Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:14 am

CTCC is my first series racing with you guys, but personally I would keep it simple. I don't think there's much sense in trying to simulate a huge grid when you just can't. Until Forza get's 40 car grids, I think it's just the way it goes. We all want racing to be competitive and balanced, but there's no changing the game. There's nuances to any series -real or virtual. With racing in Forza qualifying into lobbies is very important and I just accept that.

That being said, it's your guys' show and it's not like I'm the fastest cat either looking to win every series and scrutinize points.

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by rougewilson78 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:47 am

The more I think about it, the more I am liking the time based reults where B lobby gets plus 5 seconds and C lobby gets plus 10 seconds?

if this was to go ahead, when we run the reverse grid would A lobby then essentially become C lobby with the +10 second penalty?

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JVanEssen on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:53 pm

I think the answers are all right here.  Some of the slower guys in the ctcc field have posted (myself included)  and said they don't think they deserve unearned equal points.  I know I"m the new guy here so sorry if Im too involved in this but from the very first look at the series and points I felt there was not enough reward for good racers.  All the emphasis is on good qualifiers.   I know Andy said he was not into bonuses but I really feel like it is the most simple with the least amount of technical issues possible.  (Lobby host can see that right at the end of the race.)

Rewarding good racers just seems logical to me.  

Lets use the current race. If a guy slips up in qualifying and runs a 1:02.2 and ends up back of B lobby but then runs 1:01s the whole race gets through the field clean and wins, all he gets is his maximum qualifying points.  Reverse, someone puts in a 1:00.01 blinder is at the top of A lobby then runs 1:02s all race or crashes and ends at the back where is his penitence for that?  I believe it would be hard to argue at the end of the season that a guy who runs good clean races and gets a bunch of wins in B and occasionally works his way up A lobby does not deserve a legitimate shot at a top 5 championship.

Why not a bonus for a race win, fastest lap, positions gained? If you crush through B or C lobby and earn three extra bonus points is that not earned or deserved?


Last edited by JVanEssen on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Crappy spelling)

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:42 pm

ok i can calculate by time... will take me a while to setup, but it is possible

if i can get all the finish times for round 1 of the ctcc, or take them for the next round i will do some demo calculations

the biggest issue i see with this system:

if a picture of the total times is not taken, how will we be able to place drivers, if positions are not noted, people can remember where they finished... AND it can be ascertained from replays

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Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR ChicaiN on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:45 pm

If we make it known to all lobbies that replays and end of race images are important I dont thjnk we'll have a problem. We should test it with ctcc on the side. Not officially.
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