Log in

I forgot my password

Latest topics
» Moved to PC racing.
Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:15 pm by JVanEssen

» Announcing...
Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:58 pm by EZT MAKO 6669

» ..................its been a while!!
Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:17 am by OutlawedXJ

» Whos up for some racing?!?
Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:46 pm by OutlawedXJ

» Its Me Innit
Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:23 pm by HCR TJSteel

» VIR whos bought it??
Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:48 am by OutlawedXJ

» Forza 6: schedule question
Tue May 31, 2016 9:21 pm by t0rm3nt3d 3vil

» D Production Season 1 - Schedule
Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:42 pm by HCR Karma

» Hello Fellow Racers
Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:37 pm by HCR Bellmond

Counter
hit counter
hit counter
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Keywords


Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Do you think the proposed system is better for scoring?

21% 21% 
[ 4 ]
53% 53% 
[ 10 ]
26% 26% 
[ 5 ]
 
Total Votes : 19

Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:19 am

At XPLR the staff are always working hard in the background, not only to come up with competition ideas and exciting series, but we are also constantly questioning the way in which our racing is run and structured.  

Over the last year especially this has seen the complete overhaul of the steward inquiry and penalty process, with various ideas tested until we arrived at the current system, including complete documentation of pit entry and exit procedures.


One aspect of our current structure and the structure adopted by most sites is how races are scored.

Due to the restrictions of Forza, we can only have a maximum of 16 players in one race (although we prefer to limit this to 14 to reduce connection issues), this means that that most of our races run 2 or more lobbies.

The lobbies as most of you know is set via qualification session(s), this serves to set pole position, but also ensures that the drivers in each lobby are racing with drivers of a comparable speed - which also ensures that each lobby has plenty of hard fought close racing!

Currently points are then issued down with A lobby scoring the top 14 positions and B lobby the next 14 positions and so forth.

The issue with this is that lower lobbies can never outscore A lobby, despite possibly producing a better racing performance, and never rewarding for managing to beat their lobby.

This makes it impossible for regular B/C lobby racers to remain close to A lobby racers in the championship, and never have any chance of finishing above mid table - this leads to on XPLR and other league sites a group of elite racers who are the only real challengers for the title.


One way of combating this is to run a timed race where distances are recorded after a set time, and these then combined to plot every racer on the same virtual finishing position (with a handicap for lower lobbies).

This can be seen as quite a fair system, it's drawback is that it doesn't simulate the affect of lobby incidents across the board - so for example if there was an incident in A lobby causing a significant proportion of drivers to run slower, but still race hard for their spots, they could be beaten by all the lower lobby drivers.

Another issue with this is that it takes a lot longer for lobby hosts to record results, and subsequently longer to calculate finishing positions and standings tables - and is more suited to longer events such as the endurance ones run on TORA.


So we have looked at an alternative, still using a handicap for lower lobbies, but with a complete re-think on how lobbies are scored.

Basically every lobby is scored using the same points table, however each lobby receives a 3 place handicap, so the B lobby winner for example finishes with the same score as the A lobby 4th place, and the C lobby winner finishes with the same score as the A lobby 7th place and B lobby 4th places, and so on and so forth.

I have thrown together a table below to compare the current points system with the proposed new system so that you can see how it would work:



The staff think this could work, and keep our series much closer and competitive with B/C lobby racers given more of a change, and A lobby racers still able to fight for the title even if they have 1/2 poor qualification sessions.


As with any change on XPLR, we like to try and get feedback on any changes, so please vote on this system and feel free to fire any questions or suggestions.


Last edited by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:49 am; edited 2 times in total

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:28 am

I think this also makes penalties fairer... in the past lower lobbies score less points, so penalties are much harsher

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:03 am

We NEED feeback on this, especially if you have voted no so perhaps we can rethink the system

If you don't want to make your thoughts public please PM me

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by HCR Karma on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:22 am

Big YES from me. I think the new system is way fairer. Of course there are slight risks with people trying to break the rules,,but I would hope they would think twice as am sure the other community members would name and shame.

Lot of thought went into this....nice one Andy Smile

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
Site Co-Founder

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.



If you wish to submit a stewards inquiry please do so by clicking >>here<<
avatar
HCR Karma
Co Founder

Posts : 2683
Points : 4868
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 43
Location : Lauder, Scottish Borders

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JRacer NL on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:28 am

I can see what you are trying to do, but don't think the above proposed system is the way to go. I believe that an A lobbyist should always get more points than a C lobbyist. In 90-95% of the time a C lobbyist will never be as quick as an A lobbyist, therefore I don't think they should be able to score more. If you want to do something like this I would suggest making the overlap smaller (eg 11th A = 1st B, etc for 14 car lobby) and could even scale it for a multiclass event (eg CTCC: B-spec only the last/first position and for super touring the last/first two positions)

In your points scoring example for someone like me who will never fight for a top position in the A lobby I am better off qualifying a little slower and fighting for the win in the C final and still getting as much as the 7th in the A lobby (which I would probably never get if I tried). I don't feel that's right.

I am personally more in favour of making qualifying more prominant in the game and reducing the chance that someone can not get at least one good representative lap in. Why not set qualifying to a max time (like real life) in which someone can either go full throttle for the whole session or pick and chose his/her lap to set a lap time. For example 20 or 30 minutes. I know it makes an event a little longer, but will more than likely lessen the chance that someone has a bad qualifier.

I used to race radio controlled cars and there it's just tough luck if you end up in a B final (or lower). You should have qualified better... Very Happy

JRacer NL

Posts : 8
Points : 1426
Join date : 2014-01-02
Age : 46
Location : Assen, Netherlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am

JRacer NL wrote:I can see what you are trying to do, but don't think the above proposed system is the way to go. I believe that an A lobbyist should always get more points than a C lobbyist. In 90-95% of the time a C lobbyist will never be as quick as an A lobbyist, therefore I don't think they should be able to score more. If you want to do something like this I would suggest making the overlap smaller (eg 11th A = 1st B, etc for 14 car lobby) and could even scale it for a multiclass event (eg CTCC: B-spec only the last/first position and for super touring the last/first two positions)

In your points scoring example for someone like me who will never fight for a top position in the A lobby I am better off qualifying a little slower and fighting for the win in the C final and still getting as much as the 7th in the A lobby (which I would probably never get if I tried). I don't feel that's right.

I am personally more in favour of making qualifying more prominant in the game and reducing the chance that someone can not get at least one good representative lap in. Why not set qualifying to a max time (like real life) in which someone can either go full throttle for the whole session or pick and chose his/her lap to set a lap time. For example 20 or 30 minutes. I know it makes an event a little longer, but will more than likely lessen the chance that someone has a bad qualifier.

I used to race radio controlled cars and there it's just tough luck if you end up in a B final (or lower). You should have qualified better... Very Happy


So you arn't totally against it but think the 3 place handicap is too small? This could potentially be increased

Scaling for lobbies isn't workable as, lobbies both with multiclass and without will always differ in size between races - coming up with an effective and logical way of doing this simply would be very difficult - the points system needs to be clear

By allowing longer qualifying, we are ensuring that the best drivers are ALWAYS in A lobby - it would be easier and more time efficient to have a series qualification and stick with the same lobbies throughout. The current normal of 5 laps is more than enough for someone to set a representative time, any longer than this and it takes the pressure off qualifying, which in my view makes it very boring, if people want to hot lap, go take on some of the TAC sessions - we have further ideas in the pipeline to mix qualifying up which will be announced soon!

With the new system, with a bad qualifying, you can still score reasonably, whereas with the current system it could make racing pointless, and we have had people drop out of racing and taken a drop score because they have qualified badly - we want as many people on track as possible

I appreciate your final comment on tough luck if you end up in B/C lobby... but if you know you are never going to get into A lobby, where is the incentive to keep coming back to race? In the current system if you don't qualify for A lobby after 2 rounds, you have no chance of obtaining a decent championship position - and then we have a series with 14 drivers

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by JVanEssen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:27 pm

As a new guy who is still hanging out in c lobby I love the idea but feel the spread might be a bit small.  Maybe a set number spread regardless of Lobby position is most fair and alleviates some of the potential sandbagging concerns.  With different qualifying time slots and no idea as to how many guys will end up in each lobby there would be no way to know what times to aim for.  This would also require you guys withholding wednesday times until right after friday qualifying though.  I do feel that hot lappers with poor race skills are rewarded quite heavy in the current form.   I would also be a huge proponent for slightly longer timed qualifying sessions.  With so much emphasis on qualifying position it is almost more important than the race as far as overall championship is concerned.

JVanEssen

Posts : 636
Points : 2282
Join date : 2014-01-02
Age : 42
Location : Boulder, CO

View user profile http://www.metaskate.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:47 pm

I think the potential sandbaggers would realise that staying in B lobby would just make other people's life in A lobby much easier, the chance of winning a championship on B lobby results alone is almost impossible

And as stated we have further plans to mix up qualifying, where phase 1 will be used to set the lobbies, and possibly not final grid positions

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by HaydieT on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:59 pm

I can see where J is coming from, I'm with the current proposal but maybe it should be a certain percentage of the lobby like 2/3s. That way a C lobby winner won't score as much as somebody in A lobby but still be closer on points to the B lobby drivers & will still make competing in A lobby more of an incentive. The only problem is I can't see a way of doing it as points would be variable on the amount of drivers that turn up each week.

However I voted yes because I'm easy either way Smile

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
If you wish to submit a stewards inquiry please do so by clicking >>here<<
avatar
HaydieT
XPLR STIG

Posts : 841
Points : 2805
Join date : 2012-10-21
Age : 23
Location : Hastings

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:16 pm

I see what you are saying Mad Dog, a variable system would be best, but it would be complicated, we need something everyone understands, and ideally something that can be calculated immediately - we dont want to go back to the days of waiting days for results to be posted

I cant see even with multiclass that we would ever run less than 4 cars in a race, which is where I took 3 place drop from

Ordinarily we would have to have over 16 racers to split the lobbies, initially 9 in A lobby and 8 in B lobby

For comparission, I have done this situation with old / 3 place & 4 place deduction


_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:59 pm

Ok throwing in my 2 cents lol I love and hate it. Now that i see it better Smile

I love the ability to allow other lobbies to "essentially" compete for the championship. But I do think the spread should begin after the Top 5. As racing from both sides, anyone in any lobby has a chance and can place there. So your giving the emphasis on the positions and less on the drivers. And your basically putting pressure on any of drivers in 6-14 to really push n fight to not be outscored by a lower lobby. I hope that makes sense, its hard to stop the train and start again while i type lol

My last thing is points decrease by 1. Brings everyone closer and drivers in "crunch time" begin to think , down by 2pts so I Need to pass 2 cars. Versus just the one car for 2 pts. But thats just me, ive become of fan since a few real series have to gone it and even some virtual one. I think it makes every position worth something and not just the one in front and the one behind. Again hope it makes, sense this big train gets harder to stop once she is a going lol

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:03 pm

i think i understand ya.. and again another reason is to stop people running round at the back of a lobby settling for the points position they are in or perhaps secure a better starting position for race 2/3... this system makes everyone give 100% to the finish line

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:11 pm

Exactly, but I do agree with a top 5 is more earned and shouldn't be scored to that extent of a lower lobby. As I always felt a top 5 ment something, and anything below is just for points.

Oh as for multi class scoring. I agree with time based scoring. Cuz its scores everyone together, and yes if some guys get damage in a higher lobby, they will finish lower. Thats the way it is, because the scoring is done to represent 60 cars on track over 10-15. And if some guys in the top 5 get damage or spin, they would still get passed by cars behind them.

So the only real drawback is time, time that would be less as we get accustomed to the scoring. Yes it may take a day at most to update the points, but only the first few times, as with practice the staff and result would be out quicker and on a normal time like other standard scoring systems.

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by rougewilson78 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:21 pm

I think its a good idea, anything to try and replicate what "may" happen within a race is good and gives the guys in lower lobbys the chance to score slightly higher, it perhaps needs to be looked at in more depth but the initial proposal is a welcomed one

I personally think that multi class events should not be held as that is another thing that does not give everyone the chance to compete for the higher points

If I was racing in the current ctcc B spec cars I would much rather race with a field full of B class cars rather than 3 or 4

I understand you are trying to replicate what happens in real life races but this isnt real life and we are restircted by the limits forza places upon us for such races

Thats my tuppence worth

Perhaps a "pro" and "amatuer" option would be good for events where as the fast guys compete for the pro title and the slightly slower guys compete for the "amatuer" title and then hopefully the split would be even and allow full lobbys to be run for the 2 seperate events. The pro and amatuer status could be looked at on a rolling basis so that somone running as an amatuer and winning every race could move up to the pros and vice versa

rougewilson78

Posts : 154
Points : 2027
Join date : 2012-10-22
Age : 39

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:32 pm

I think I came across wrong on multi class, the time based scoring compares classes becuase the "lobby" numbers and as such if your 1st place in B lobby, you could be looking at first place in class with the situation your fellow competitors above you have had issues.

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:31 pm

no worries... i'd like to steer away from multi class discussion as this is something we rarely run (in fact i think the CTCC is the first season)

this points system is more likely to be run in future series

any discussion on setup for the CTCC should/can be made in the CTCC forums for XPR Venom to address

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:56 pm

Oh yeah, and CTCC is just the beginning but yes another day lol

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by Exiled on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:11 pm

Eh maybe B lobby winner makes same points as say the next to last guy in A lobby, and winner from C lobby makes the same as next to last guy in B lobby.

I'm not a fan of the first idea. The whole point of being in A lobby is because your a faster guy due to practice or skill or your not being human ect... To be penalized for not being top 4 and having the winner of B lobby make more points then you is silly.
avatar
Exiled

Posts : 25
Points : 1430
Join date : 2014-01-13
Age : 33
Location : Independence,Ky

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:18 pm

CRA Chaos wrote:Eh maybe B lobby winner makes same points as say the next to last guy in A lobby, and winner from C lobby makes the same as next to last guy in B lobby.

I'm not a fan of the first idea. The whole point of being in A lobby is because your a faster guy due to practice or skill or your not being human ect... To be penalized for not being top 4 and having the winner of B lobby make more points then you is silly.


we are trying to be more balanced than just rewarding winners... if the B/C lobby wins/podiums are rewarded I'd fear that driving standards may start to slack in those lobbies

we appreciate that A lobby drivers may feel they are being penalised, but under the current rules what is the point in even racing in B/C lobby apart from just fun?

similarly.. if you win a championship on paper it looks like you've beaten 30+ people, when in reality you only beat the handful who could hot lap as quick

there is still an incentive to be in A lobby, in that your points arn't handicapped

what we are trying to address is someone who works hard to do well in a lower lobby and basically gets nothing for it

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by Exiled on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:24 pm

The problem is then you create a harsh environment in A lobby. Driving standards will fall, guys will drive over each other just to not be out pointed by a lower lobby. One reaction will cause a opposite reaction.
avatar
Exiled

Posts : 25
Points : 1430
Join date : 2014-01-13
Age : 33
Location : Independence,Ky

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by AndyT306 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:28 pm

CRA Chaos wrote:The problem is then you create a harsh environment in A lobby. Driving standards will fall, guys will drive over each other just to not be out pointed by a lower lobby.  One reaction will cause a opposite reaction.


i would suggest that that already exists, everyone in a lobby has something to play for and always will... doubt anyone thinks i'll be happy to finish 5th every week after working my nuts off to qualify

the time option i'm still not keen on - and there are still calls for handicaps on that... it's just messy, and also puts trust in players to stop when they are told to


any other ideas we are welcome to hear

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
AndyT306
Co Founder

Posts : 2104
Points : 4524
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham

View user profile http://www.xboxproleagueracing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:34 pm

As an A lobby guy, sometimes the difference in making lobbies is thousandths of a second. And pending how the numbers vary from week to week, you maybe racing your rival for several races. Then a low turnout and lobbies are smaller for many reasons and now your in different lobbies.

Think of it if we could have 30 guys in a lobby, vs 3 lobbies of 10. A driver qualifies .001 behind 10th place and .432 to 3rd place and .300 ahead of 12th. How is it fair to him to miss out on A lobby becuase we have to make lobbies equal but yet he just logs laps in B lobby and wins the race. And some times his overall time is faster than Top Finisher in A lobby.

This is just one of many scenarios that happen every racing scenarios. And guys from B and C lobby stop showing up because of so many reasons, and always being out of contention is one. Some thing that a balanced and fair points system could eliminate that.

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Soundwave on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm

Also why would they drive other themselves and cause accidents loosing even more spots???

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Soundwave

Posts : 75
Points : 1937
Join date : 2012-10-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by Exiled on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:51 pm

XPR Soundwave wrote:Also why would they drive other themselves and cause accidents loosing even more spots???
even though you may not think that way some do it instinctively. Knowing if you finish in 5th the guy winning lobby B will out score you. It will make you drive and try even harder and possibly push to hard and cause an accident. Hell we had a missed braking point in the second race last week probably because he was pushing to hard and missed his braking zone. Four cars where damaged in that including me while I was leading. That sort of intensity will magnify.
avatar
Exiled

Posts : 25
Points : 1430
Join date : 2014-01-13
Age : 33
Location : Independence,Ky

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by XPR Roadrunner on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:52 pm

I like the idea, but the handicaps should be half of the lobby I think. if lobbies are split to 14, then overlap should start at 7. 13 starts at 6, 12 starts at 6, 11 starts at 5 etc etc

_________________

XPLR - XBOX Pro League Racing
avatar
XPR Roadrunner

Posts : 280
Points : 2172
Join date : 2013-01-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Future Changes for XPLR - All Please Read

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum